Title: Covenant and Conflict: A Theological Perspective on the Current Middle East Crisis Text: Various Date: 12/03/2023 Speaker: [[Todd Stiles]] Location: [[First Family Church, Ankeny]] Length: 2 hours [[Replacement Theology]] Defined & Defended --- Does the current Israeli-Palestinian war have prophetic implications? Listen as Pastor Todd shares a proper and biblical approach to understanding both a timeline and a truth line regarding God’s promise to Abraham that provides God’s people with how to think and what to do. <iframe width="1080" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed//h07MC_fd-1k?si=ljobmVgq73MlB7-g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> ## Summary - **Middle East conflict from a theological perspective.** [0:00](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=0s) - Todd Stiles prays for humility and understanding in the midst of the Middle East crisis, acknowledging his own limitations as a pastor. - Todd Stiles shares his experience of being asked to teach on a sensitive topic in church, feeling prompted by the Holy Spirit to share his views despite initial hesitation. - Stiles explains how he humbly shared his perspective with a small group, leading to a fruitful conversation and a desire to share his insights with the larger church community. - Todd Stiles emphasizes the importance of being gracious and humble in discussions, even when disagreeing on biblical issues. - He encourages leaders to help their congregation with issues and challenge them with meekness, while still respecting their previous views. ### **The Middle East crisis and its impact on unity.** [7:06](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=427s) - Todd Stiles aims to help the church stay missional amid global changes. - Todd Stiles identifies the problem of division caused by the Middle East crisis in churches, small groups, and families, and hopes to address it without causing further division. - Stiles shares anecdotes to informally prove that the crisis is causing unnecessary division, and encourages listeners to remember that the people involved are also interacted with in their daily lives. ### **Language and focus in missions.** [12:13](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=734s) - Todd Stiles expresses concern that language and focus may unintentionally alienate certain ethnicities, risking mission and efforts. - Todd Stiles argues that using vague phrases like "God's chosen people" can unintentionally hurt missional efforts. - Todd Stiles discusses the term "God's chosen people" and its potential meanings, including for Israel as a geopolitical state, believing Jews worldwide, and the universal church. ### **Language and cultural context in missions.** [18:46](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=1126s) - Todd Stiles highlights how language can unintentionally create division and lose opportunities for missional impact. - Todd Stiles invites Matt and Khalil onto the platform to share how they are staying on mission in a culturally and geographically diverse environment. - Matt, a Palestinian, and Khalil, an American, share their experiences and insights on the importance of context and focus in language and ministry. ### **Identity, citizenship, and faith.** [24:12](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=1452s) - Matt Matthew shares his identity struggles as a Palestinian Israeli and American, finding peace in his faith in Christ. ### **Identity, politics, and faith in Nazareth.** [27:33](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=1654s) - Speaker 2 emphasizes the importance of forming opinions based on the Bible, rather than relying solely on political or cultural beliefs. - Speaker 2 encourages listeners to seek spiritual maturity and understanding through personal study and prayer, rather than solely relying on external sources. - Todd Stiles asks Speaker 2 about their identity and experiences growing up in Nazareth, a predominantly Muslim city with a minority of Christian residents. ### **Palestinian identity and politics.** [33:59](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=2040s) - Speaker 2 shares personal experience and cultural insights on Palestinian identity and the importance of understanding indigenous perspectives. - Speaker 2 shares their personal experience with Palestinian culture and religion, emphasizing the importance of context and understanding. - Todd Stiles expresses gratitude towards Matt and Ken for helping him grow in his understanding of different ethnicities and cultures. - ### **Faith, crisis, and missionary work in the Middle East.** [39:55](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=2396s) - Speaker shares personal experience of tracing lineage back to time of Christ in the Middle East. - Speaker 3 shares their experience of feeling overwhelmed by news of conflict in Israel and the need for spiritual intervention. - Speaker 3 prays for the Lord to pour out His Spirit on all nations, including those in Gaza, to know the Messiah. ### **Sharing faith in Israel amidst conflict.** [43:50](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=2631s) - Speaker 3 discusses the call to share faith with others, citing Psalm 67:1-2 and the example of young Israeli believers sharing their faith with others in the region. - Speaker 3 ponders how to engage with people in a post-Christian society where biblical knowledge is scarce and violence is common, reflecting on the example of early believers in the region. - Speaker discusses the importance of Jerusalem in their prayer and the role of the Jewish people in God's plan. - Speaker reflects on their experiences interacting with Muslims, acknowledging the challenge of witnessing to people with different beliefs while maintaining compassion and understanding. - Speaker emphasizes the importance of approaching conversations with empathy and understanding, rather than assuming a superior stance or relying on media sources. ### **Staying missional through Jesus' teachings.** [51:00](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=3061s) - Speaker 3 emphasizes that Jesus' message is for everyone, regardless of ethnic background or geographical location (John 10:16). - The speaker references Matthew 28:19-20, highlighting the lack of divisions or borders in Jesus' teachings, and quotes Matt's earlier statement about God-fearing Jews from every nation being present at Pentecost (Acts 2:5). - Speaker 3 emphasizes the importance of Jesus in resolving conflicts, citing Ephesians 2:14-16 as the key to bridging the gap between Jews and non-Jews. - Speaker 3 encourages listeners to prioritize reading their Bibles, citing Proverbs 11:30, Second Timothy 4:2-5, and First Peter 3:15 as guides for sharing their faith and following Christ. ### **Sharing Jesus in the Middle East.** [56:49](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=3409s) - Speaker 3 shares how God has given them opportunities to share Jesus with others, despite fear and discomfort. - Speaker 3 plans to create a playlist of hymns and carols with scripture in the lyrics to share with others, especially during the Christmas season. - Todd Stiles and Speaker 3 discuss the challenges of ministering to both Palestinians and Jewish people in the Middle East, with Speaker 3 emphasizing the importance of establishing a personal connection and avoiding labels like "Christian." - Speaker 3 shares their experience of being misunderstood as an outsider due to their religious label, and Todd Stiles nods in agreement, highlighting the need to approach conversations with sensitivity and respect. ### **Persecution of Christians in the Middle East.** [1:02:44](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=3765s) - Basil shared his personal experience of persecution in the Middle East after accepting Jesus, including being ostracized by his village and facing significant suffering. - Kent added that persecution is a real and ongoing issue for those who come to faith in the Middle East, and that it can cost them their life in some cases. ### **Biblical language and Israel-Palestine conflict.** [1:05:14](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=3914s) - Todd Stiles offers a revised language prescription for discussing God's chosen people, using biblical definitions and specific phrases to clarify meaning. - Todd Stiles: God's chosen people are now ethnic Jews worldwide, and the land was given to them when they were a theocracy. - Speaker 2: The issue with the land is unique to the Middle East, excluding other communities worldwide, and taking a stance on it can easily exclude certain groups. ### **Using specific language in political conversations.** [1:10:16](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=4217s) - Todd Stiles and Speaker 2 discuss the importance of being specific when sharing opinions or beliefs, with Speaker 2 emphasizing the need for context and biblical backing. - Speaker 2 advises listeners to be willing to invest time in learning about a subject before sharing their opinions, in order to be more helpful and avoid gray areas. - Todd Stiles encourages listeners to specify and clarify their language when discussing Israel and Palestine, using examples like "widening the focus with a biblical perspective" and "supporting those who are defending their citizens." - Stiles provides four phrases to modify or replace, such as "standing with Israel" or "praying for all people in the region," to avoid generalizations and promote more nuanced conversations. ### **Language and identity in the context of the Abrahamic Covenant.** [1:16:39](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=4600s) - Speaker 3 shares an anecdote about an Israeli who identifies as both Jewish and Israeli, highlighting the distinction between the two identities. - Speaker 3 and Todd Stiles agree on the importance of clarity and specific reasons when answering questions, especially when it comes to complex issues like identity. - Todd Stiles believes fulfillment of Abrahamic Covenant simplifies understanding of conflict and enables more compassionate communication with diverse groups. ### **The fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant in the current crisis.** [1:22:05](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=4926s) - Todd Stiles believes the current crisis has less prophetic implications than people think, but more missional opportunities. - He explains how the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant is stated in Scripture and has helped him prioritize missional actions over political or national ones. ### **Fulfillment of God's promises in Christ.** [1:25:06](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=5107s) - Todd Stiles believes that Christ is the fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham, including the land of Canaan. - He cites Galatians 3:16-17, 3:27-29, Romans 9:6-8, and Ephesians 2:11-12 to support his view. - Todd Stiles argues that the church is the current God-chosen people, not replacing Israel but expanding God's plan through Christ's fulfillment of promises. - Stiles provides historical references to support his view, challenging those who accuse believers of replacement theology. ### **Biblical covenant fulfillment.** [1:31:20](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=5481s) - Todd Stiles argues that the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham is seen in the historical occupation of Canaan by the Israelites. - Todd Stiles believes the covenant is fulfilled through Christ, who came, fulfilled righteousness, and ratified the covenant through His death in 30 AD. - He emphasizes the importance of understanding the seed (Christ) as the fulfillment of the covenant, and how it makes conflicts with other interpretations less theological. ### **The Fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.** [1:36:31](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=5791s) - Todd Stiles explains the difference between literal and spiritual views of the kingdom of God. - Todd Stiles emphasizes the importance of understanding the Abrahamic Covenant in the Middle East conflict. - Todd Stiles interprets Jesus' statement "Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will raise it up" as Jesus equating himself with the temple, and the church as his body. - Stiles believes the covenant was fulfilled through Christ, and God's chosen people are now his church, both Jew and Gentile. ### **Biblical prophecy and the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.** [1:42:44](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=6165s) - Todd Stiles believes Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives, marking the beginning of the Day of the Lord and the new heavens and earth. - Todd Stiles argues that seeing the Abrahamic Covenant as fulfilled in Christ provides the simplest and clearest understanding of the Bible's overarching narrative and historical events. ### **Biblical teachings and Jewish-Arab relations.** [1:46:03](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=6363s) - Todd Stiles and Travis Walker discuss questions from the audience during a church service. - Todd Stiles emphasizes treating all people as made in God's image, without qualifying help based on race or ethnicity. - Todd Stiles believes there is a partial hardening of Israel due to persecution and opposition, possibly tying into Romans 11. - Speaker 4 thinks there is a combination of jealousy from other nations and punishment for their actions that has led to the long-standing hatred towards Jewish people. ### **Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology.** [1:52:28](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=6748s) - Todd Stiles and Speaker 4 agree that their church's theology is neither covenant nor dispensational, but they acknowledge both strains of thought in their beliefs. - They emphasize the importance of looking at their church's core doctrine, position papers, and faith and message to understand their theological stance. - Speaker 4 believes God will fulfill His promises to Abraham forever, including the land of Canaan, despite dispossession due to disobedience in the past. - Speaker 4 and Unknown Speaker agree that the focus on the here and now can lead to forgetting God's eternal promises, including the new heavens and new earth, where Christ will fulfill His promises forever. ### **Ezekiel 37-39 and its interpretation.** [1:58:13](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=7093s) - Todd Stiles provides insight on Ezekiel 37-39, suggesting that the prophecy of God coming against Israel and Israel being saved may be fulfilled through the coming of Christ and the inauguration of the kingdom. - Stiles encourages listeners not to assume that Gog and Magog refer to a future event, but rather a historical moment, possibly referring to the coming of Christ. - Todd Stiles shares his thoughts on simplicity in mission, citing the example of a small group he leads where he provides insight without being asked questions. - Travis prays for the group's devotion to mission and asks for their commitment to stay focused on their purpose. ### **Love, sacrifice, and spreading the gospel.** [2:03:37](https://otter.ai/u/4OPPC6mqItXZQ2e0MtX1gXP6jp0?tab=summary&t=7418s) - The speaker expresses gratitude for God's love and sacrifice, and prays for humility and unity in spreading the gospel. ## Transcript Todd Stiles  0:00  So welcome to covenant and conflict. What I hope will be a theological perspective on the current Middle East crisis. I'm really glad you're here. We tried to squeeze you in as much as possible. So, understand that. Now, I'm a little nervous today, but not in a bad way. I want to begin by just praying for a lot's of humility, can we do that? Let's do that. Lord, Jesus, you are so gracious to us. You are the only saving God in the universe. And so thank you that you love all peoples. Thank you for how you chose out of all peoples Abraham. And through his line you brought Messiah, thank you, Lord, that in him, all nations of the earth had been blessed. And that there will be around your throne one day people from every nation, tribe and tongue. And so Lord, understanding more of how you're doing this, why it matters. I pray you'd give us just boatloads of humility today. Grace, and illumination, and even in where our differences arise, Lord, give us just spiritual brotherhood and sisterhood in those moments. This we pray in the gracious and good name of Jesus, our Savior. all God's people said with me. Amen, amen. Hey, I want you to know upfront, I'm, uh, I'm no expert on any of this. All right. I'm not a politician. I'm not a historian. I'm a pastor with theological beliefs. I'm a shepherd, and feels a delightful weight of leading a certain section of God's people with other shepherds. And so that's what brings me here today, I don't always address cultural things. I did feel a nudge towards this. Through what I refer now to as the small group sabotage. Some of you are in this room who did this to me. Those two are looking for the Wilsons. Were they over here? So I was asked for a number of weeks when I thought about different things regarding Israel, and I wasn't sure who they meant by that term. So I would ask, and then that would in bring out other questions. And so in this small group that was supposed to be a fireside chat. They kept prompting me for what I thought about it. And I finally in a moment of transparency and vulnerability, I said to them, Well, I think what you want me to do is to adopt a view that some of you hold, and then you're gonna kind of corner me that why I don't hold that view. And they said to me, we don't know what views you're talking about. So I said, Oh, really, as a you, you actually just are curious, like, how do we make sense of some what's happening? How do you make sense of it? And they said, Yeah, we actually want to know what you think. So I humbly said, I just didn't believe the best about you. Sorry. I kind of thought you wanted to kind of, you know, see where I was. And then. And so we spent the next about 45 minutes an hour just talking through different views. But them hearing why I view things the way I do and how it helps me in some areas out of that conversation. God just seemed to say it would be helpful if you shared this with the church, I think they encourage that as well. And so I want my posture to be if that's clearly what you want, I'm in I'll do it. And I think when I got home that evening, to be frank with that small group. That's what the Lord was saying. So I just said, sure I'll do I'll be happy to. So the next I just scheduled it. I'm not sure if it's convenient for everyone's time. But it really fit with kind of this past year, just having a couple of extra teaching opportunities. One of them is this one called the Sunday seminar. We taught you how to read Revelation one Sunday. This kind of fits in that and so I just took that from the Holy Spirit is like this is the right time, the right thing. And so that's why we're here today. It's really informational. Yes, it's helpful, I hope, but really, it's my response to the Lord, to try to be a faithful pastor to our sheep. Now, I want you to know there'll be some things you'll hear today you will not agree with. No problem. Okay. I may be wrong on some of them. You could be wrong on some of them. That disagreement is not a sin. Okay? We can leave here in very close fellowship. Even if we disagree, and we know we disagree, that will be no problem. So I think we should, at least on the at the outset agree to that I would challenge you, as you would challenge me, let's just make sure that we are at the end of the day falling on the word. And in all honesty in regards to this issue, we will probably all say we're falling on the word, and we're still going to end in some different places, I admit that, you'll you'll admit that that makes sense. So in that moment, when we realize why we should see the world differently, let's be gracious and humble, brotherly and sisterly and let's consistently approach each other in a spirit of meekness and not in the spirit of debate. That being said, I don't think it's unhealthy for our leaders, in this case, myself, to help us with issues and to make sure that whatever framework you're using, it's one that you've thought through, and that perhaps has been challenged by another framework. And if you still hold to your previous one, with good reasoning, and biblical insight, fantastic. That makes sense. I don't think it's ever unhealthy, to be challenged in a meek way. So that's made that may be what some of you will hear today, others will just find it helpful and informative. I also there's a segment of our church who will not have heard of any of this, or these views. And you'll think, man, how in the world, how this can become so confusing. So suddenly, you may think that for any of those people, just in any group, if you want to talk further, I'm fully open to that we'd love to chat with you. Not to prove you wrong, or for you to prove me wrong, just to have good spirited Christianly conversation if we need to. So if I'm, if I'm in your camp, if we're say, Hey, I'm down with that could just not mean So yeah, we're with that. Because I'm not here to pick a fight or to cause a debate. I want to help our sheep process what's happening around the world in a specific area. And here's why. Because my goal today, and I think I speak for the elders here. And they know that this is happening. They've got a little bit of a preview. So I didn't they signed off on this in one sense, don't worry, they give me some good fences and some guardrails. But my goal today is expressed in two ways. I'm aiming to help us think and act more missional than cultural and more biblical than political game. That's my goals. It's kind of one goal, two ways to state it more missional and cultural, more biblical than political. In fact, I want to do today a little bit of what I think by God's grace we were somewhat able to do during COVID. I think during COVID, we didn't make every step perfectly. I thought we did a better than average job. And I think what helped us was we realized our goal was to stay missional, not medical. And so we just tried the best we could to say, you know, there are other people who can answer those questions. The church has one job to make disciples, regardless of what it is outside are harder. That's our job. So let's figure that out first, and let the other folks handle the medical stuff. So I see this in that way, a little bit like, there's a lot going on over there. It does affect us, the world is getting smaller ethnicities are living closer together for different reasons. So how can we remain in the best position possible? Thinking theologically, as correctly as possible, so that we stay as missional as possible. I'll lead us towards this goal in three sections, there'll be a time we'll identify the problem that will happen first. Then we'll provide a prescription. Both of those sections will be pretty scripted. So I have written out a good bit of what I intend to share and say I have a little fluidity in there. But for the most part in this section, it's going to be I'm feel like I'm pretty prepped for this part, these two parts, then we'll enter to a time but we'll tackle some perplexities, that's where we'll get really fluid. We call that q&a. So if you want to text a question in you can we'll take live questions as well. And that's what this these mics will be for at a specific place. This has been recorded, so we'll need you to go to the mic and ask your question. But at that point, we will have you know kind of back and forth. And I'm willing to kind of tackle that unscripted. best I can. So just be aware of that three sections, we're going to identify the problem, we're going to provide a prescription, and then we're going to tackle some complexities, the prescription part will be where we give an answer. And then I want to show you know, how I arrive at those answers. That's where we probably have our most disagreement. So it seems natural to follow that part with with our perplexity section. Okay. Great. hope that made sense. Let me see if we can first of all, identify the problem. You know, what driving me as a pastor, even as a Christian, to try to address things from the Middle East? Israel, the Gaza area, these ethnicities from there, what why talk about that. And Anthony, I wear the heart of the Midwest, right? So here's what I'm realizing. You may agree with this, you may not. I tend to think the current Middle East crisis can cause and I think it has caused, I would have a few anecdotal reference to share with you. I won't for sake of time, but I think I could, either, for sure, informally prove to you that this crisis is unintentionally and unnecessarily causing some division in some various places, whether it be in some churches, maybe in some small groups, or maybe some families or among even Christian friends. My hope is that it doesn't cause division here, because the division seems to be having an emotional effect, we are forgetting that the very people groups involved in the struggle are also some of the people groups that we interact with, at times, not a lot. Granted, it's the Midwest as I was anchoring. It's not the most diverse place in the world. But yet you do have representatives will call them from that area in this metro area you do might fear so to speak, and it's not a worry, sinful fear. But my concern is that, if we're not careful, we'll become unintentionally divided through a misuse of language or focus and our mission or efforts will be thwarted, won't be able to effectively make disciples of all nations because by our language and focus, we've unintentionally alienated certain ethnicities. Let me give you some examples. I've mentioned the words language and focus. I think our language in regards to the crisis in the Middle East can get unnecessarily loose. When we don't have to be general, sometimes we are. That may not be because we want to be it maybe we just don't know what to say. So we just say what the media has said. And it's very general, and it can actually not really communicate what a heart is feeling or thinking. I think our focus can get unintentionally narrow. And by that what I mean is we sometimes unintentionally become very national, instead of biblical. Again, that may be unintentional. We may not really know what to say so we just say like I said what the media says thinking well that will work for this person they've heard that too. And unintentionally in our language and focus we sometimes may risk alienation misinterpret misinterpretation that we don't have to risk if we just were to narrow in a little bit on what we actually believe. Miss it to you like this, I think we can be specifically missional in our language and focus not merely cultural. I think we can be specifically biblical in our language and focus not merely political. Now, let me give you some examples. Here's some phrases we use the media uses. Not all of them, but some do. You've heard them. And I want to explain to you and show you how I think they can be misused unintentionally. Here's the phrase God's chosen people. Under the phrase Palestinians are the problem. Under the phrase, we stand with Israel another phrase, they have a right to the land So these are general terms that many people use. Not everyone, but many use without thinking about what they actually specifically mean to various ethnicities, especially those have yet to believe in the risen Christ. And what I want to show you is that regardless of your in times position or positions, loose language and general focus, language and focus this both unnecessarily and unintentionally loose and narrow, can actually hurt our missional efforts and can hurt our outreach. Now, make sure you don't hear what I'm not saying. Okay. I'm not saying that some of those phrases shouldn't be used. I'm not saying that. I'm suggesting this afternoon that you use some of those phrases with clarity and specificity with purposefulness, and intentionality. And my aim and goal is that, again, regardless of where you land on some in times, things that you begin to use those phrases very intentionally, for the sake of the mission of God may further explain the potential confusion, I'm trying to identify the problem, okay. I'm trying to bring you on board what I've witnessed, and do my best to prevent that from landing at first family, I want to remain a body fully focused on developing devoted followers. I think this will be a good swing point for me to do. Three or four multiple choice questions for you is, I'm going back to a phrase I mentioned earlier, is God's chosen people, a the nation of Israel as a geopolitical state? Or is it be believing Jews anywhere in the world? Or is it see the universal church? So what you would probably agree with me, I think where we'd find agreement is, yeah, I guess that term could be misunderstood, depending on who you're talking to. So if you just say, God's chosen people, without really knowing what you mean by it, or how they're hearing it, you actually may mean one of at least three things. Admittedly, so Right. Granted, I'm not saying you have to agree with what I think about I'm just stating a fact that is a term that if used loosely, can mean various things. Here's the phrase, the phrase, Palestinians are the problem. Is that a code for Hamas? Was that be a racist statement? Or is it see media leftovers? Like I've heard that on the news, that sounds you know, good to me. Let's say it. Let's pick another phrase. We stand with Israel. Now we've heard that a good bit right. Is that a political commitment? To an ally? Is it be a theological belief? Is it see a geographical understanding? I love the looks I'm getting. I think, actually, you're sensing what I've been says, like, wow, there's some phrases that I just thought meant one thing, but I didn't know they could mean something else. And I didn't know that, depending on the ethnicity, or the location that people heard them differently like this is you're sensing how our language is, if unnecessarily and unintentionally loose or narrow can communicate various things. That's all I'm trying to identify as there is a problem that can cause us to be less missional. If we're not careful. Here's another phrase for you. The phrase they have a right to the land. In your mind, is that based on a divine promise, a legal decision or a superior military force, A, B or C, and how you say that will affect your conversation. So so if you're kind of tracking with me how sometimes our focus in language if not intentional and specific, could create some division unintentionally and lost opportunities. Could you just kind of nod at least a little bit? Let me hear what's up there. Like I think I'm tracking with you Okay, that's kind of what I've sensed and multiple situations and instances. Again, anecdotal. If you don't know what you live about these terms and concepts, and this will be a little repetitious, but let me just kind of work through this, I think using them loosely or widely, or generally, can actually create unintentional distance between yourself and a Palestinian, or an ethnic Jew or an Arab. You see, context matters. You could even say, the environment of our words matter. Definitions matter, both biblically and culturally. And we should work as hard as we can, and as hard as we need to at being contextually aware as possible in our language and focus so that we are as scripturally missional as possible. Now, don't think for a minute that the people I just mentioned, aren't near you. Apart from an ethnic Jew, we have them in our church. Now, at least one Palestinian, we may have an ethnic Jew, I don't know of them that we may we definitely have all three in Anthony. And we for sure have all three in Metro Des Moines, Arabs, ethnic Jews, Palestinians, and then Americans. Our closest fields right around us have the very people whose relatives miles away are in serious conflict with each other. So I want you to hear your pastor say to you how we speak about this issue does matter. Maybe not in a grand way or a large way. But the world is flattening ethnicities are living closer together, it does matter to some degree. So we need to understand context to a certain degree. And I want to help us realize that the mission to reach people of all nations is the most important issue. It's the mandate of the church is the priority matter that must affect our entire life, for sure our language and focus. So as I've been learning how to be more focused, better clarifying. God brought two men into my life to help me with this. And I want you to meet them now. They're going to take about 10 minutes and share with you. I love these men, and I've grown to love them more as the Lord has intersected my life. And if I could just be very vulnerable with you my ignorance with their intelligence in these areas. We don't agree on everything. We agree on the most important things. And God has really used them to help me learn how to stay more missional as a pastor, through more specific and intentional language and focus, one of the men you'll meet some Palestinian, who grew up in that area. One is an American who lived there for years as a businessman and as a missionary. I want you to hear from them how they are staying on mission in a culture and environment that's usually political or geographical. Okay, so I want you to meet first of all, Matt, Khalil, Matt, you join me up here on the platform. Matt will introduce himself and tell you about who he is and just share about 10 minutes with you how he is. Think the idea is, you know, it's of context and focus language and stuff. And I'll let him speak. This is not scripted. I didn't tell them what to say. I have just grown to appreciate their influence in my life in this area. And I thought you know, before I share, I think you should hear from them. So Matt, have some fun here with our people, buddy. Thanks, Speaker 1  24:11  Todd. Thanks for inviting me. And thanks for coming. I really, Todd Stiles  24:15  for the for those. We got a camera shot, which I'm recording this. So there we go. Thanks. Speaker 1  24:20  Yeah, thanks. Thanks for showing interest and wanting to learn more, and I appreciate that you're here. Honestly, from my heart. I don't have this scripted. And I'm going to share a little bit about myself and it might be confusing, and that's fine. Find me and we can talk more about that. So my name is Matt Matthew. We my wife and I attend first family. My wife Mallory, we've been here at been months around 18 months. And we have four children. I've been here in the US for about 17 years. And I am a Palestinian Israeli. And if that is confusing, I totally understand. And on top of that I'm also an American. So I understand that could be confusing. So if you want to know more what that means, find me and we can get coffee and talk about that. Yeah, so I grew up a Palestinian and Palestinian community, in the country of Israel. And for me that, you know, it's, it's something very, very special. And, at the same time, very confusing to me, because I have a mix of identities. And now, and my mother is British also. But my father is Palestinian, and I grew up in a Palestinian community, so I identify more with the Palestinian community. But I have Israeli citizenship, and now I have US citizenship. And I, honestly, I did not choose any of those identities. And but I do have an identity in Christ that I did choose. And I've been wrestling with this for years and years, because this war that's happened now, it's not the first time it's. Speaker 1  26:49  In it's happened multiple times, and this one is, understandably, at a greater impact to the world. And as much as I have wanted to, and I have in the past, claimed to one of the narratives, the earthly narratives that the media that the world that the political leaders wants you to take. I've only found peace in my identity in Christ. So I can totally relate with being missional and thinking missional. And what has really helped me is thinking about that, because a lot of people asked me now, what do you think about the situation? And a lot of questions I get is, well, what's the solution? Do you ever see peace? And that there's a political, cultural answer to that? And then there's a biblical answer to that. And I so want to get into the political answer, because a lot of those people asking me, I make assumptions on and I think I know where they stand. So I, I already want to argue with them before they get there. And then I remember that the biblical solution is the only one that makes sense, just like the identity that you have. It's the only one that makes sense. So yeah, I think the that's where I, I explained, you know, you can form your, your political, even your end time beliefs. And you could believe, pastors opinion, you could believe a political leaders opinion. But I think I've been encouraging everyone to form their own opinion based on the Bible. And the gospel, really. For me, that has made the most sense as I've wrestled through through this through my my whole life. And really, this I feel like this year, I'm more spiritually mature to be able to handle that and talk to people. And it's been overwhelming to me. But I've had a lot of support, and God has been answering a lot of my prayers. So as much as I don't want to keep talking about this, because I do get emotional. I would love to meet with every one of you and share what I know. Yes, context matters. And if you if you are interested in politics of it the political conviction of it the cultural. I think I encourage people to learn that there's nothing wrong with that. And I would be glad to give you what I know. And the context I know and help you understand more about that. living there myself. I think it is important. But I feel like that will serve you. No good if you're not going to invest in forming your opinion based on the Bible. Todd Stiles  30:36  Yeah. Can we think Man, first of all? Can I ask you a couple of questions? Yeah. Let's compare live for a little bit. I don't, I won't be on the spot. This is a deeply emotional issue for you as the first one is about growing up in Nazareth. You said Palestinian Israeli? And I think even still, I'm saying things incorrectly. So what was that? Like? Did you feel like you weren't really part of the nation? Or did you feel like you were or? Speaker 1  31:07  Yeah, that's, that's a very good question. Yeah, a lot of people ask me, where are you from? And my answer is changed throughout the years. Because I, whatever I tell them, they, you know, they make assumptions already. I'm like, Whoa, hold on. But, yeah, I grew up in Nazareth. And I have two fathers. And they're both carpenters from Nazareth. Yeah. My, my father is actually carpenter from Nazareth. And then went into ministry. Yeah, net. So Nazareth is mostly Muslim, 80%, Muslim, and 20%. Christian. And I want to say, maybe the majority of that 20% is either Roman Orthodox Christians or Catholic Christians. So if angelical is are a huge minority there, but there's a lot of active churches and ministries in Nazareth and other Christian villages around there. Really the it, we all identify as Palestinians, and we all speak Arabic in Nazareth, and I grew up actually go into a Baptist School. I have classmates that were Muslims and Christians at the Baptist School, it was, you know, a ministry. In that sense. I grew up speaking, English and Arabic. And we learned Hebrew in, in school. And then I never really used Hebrew until I went to college because I grew up in a Palestinian community. So when I, when I went to college, I started making friends with Israeli Jews. And it, you know, it was normal. And we all shared the same laughs the same interest in music and so really, the land of Israel is a mix of cultures and ethnicities, and most of them are not Christ followers, and most of them are secular Jews and secular Muslims and secular Christians. And there's a, there's a, quite a few churches that teach the Bible. And like, when, when you were mentioning certain things that we could say, those people are impacted by standard political stances we take and I've been trying to help people understand that the mix of cultures there and how things matter the things that we say matter. Todd Stiles  34:32  So let's just let's just tackle one of those this phrase I included here Palestinians have the problem, which is kind of a media phrase at times, probably code for a mosque. So they take this one strip Gaza Strip, and they say, well, that's where the Palestinians are. That's where the problem is. Emotionally. Yeah, that doesn't resonate with you and it's kind of a lot a lump of people are included now as the issue and I mean, there's some assumptions made like walk us through that just for A minute, could you Speaker 1  35:00  Yeah. So that used to create bitterness and anger in me. But living living here for so long I, I understand why people would think that because because of the media and education system and what we're exposed to here, and there's not enough of this happening in churches, for people really to know that the Palestinian people are indigenous, and you could read that and act in Acts, mentions, Arabs mentions other cultures. There's a little town outside of Bethlehem. That's the shepherds town. And, and it's called beds a hole. And it's mostly Palestinian Christians. They're going extinct right now. And that that's the community I identify with. And it's a huge ministry to the majority of Palestinians who are Muslims. Before the State of Israel became a nation, Palestinians included Jews, Christians, and Muslims. And, you know, it's hard for people to understand how that is possible. But it's factual Unknown Speaker  36:30  was a land area. Yeah. People have identified Speaker 1  36:32  Yes. All right. And there's, you know, that there's a lot of terms that are out there, that that we, we could identify with, and some we don't understand. You know, jihad or Zionism, or Palestinians or Israelis. There's Israelis that are Palestinians. So it's, it's a very, very, it's a culture there that's mixed with religion, politics, history, context, context that you've been exposed to in context you haven't been exposed to. Context is very, very, very important. Todd Stiles  37:24  On a personal note, on a personal note, it was a special moment for me and Matt, can I get you to come up here again? Yeah, you keep going to slide back to your guitar slot? Don't you worry. Matt plays for us a lot. And he'll stand right there feel comfortable here today, buddy. Okay. On October 7, Julie, is such a just a fantastic partners and wife she, when we got news that she said, You got to reach out to Matt and Mallory. She knew they were Palestinian, or he's Palestinian Mallory's not is Mallory here? That's it, right. So I thought okay, but she just said she knows he got to reach out to Matt. And I was like, Yeah, that's a great idea. So they were at a, like a gala. Alley, I called or texted and I said, Hey, I know this. News probably causes a lot of in your heart. He had just talked to me about some things earlier, I forget how we connected but that began some real conversation about things I just didn't even know. Context, words, definitions, and it began a whole like, landslide like why I had no idea. And so did thanks for You've helped me grow since that phone call. And just being patient with me as your pastor, I really appreciate that a lot here. I don't know. When we met in person at their house. His first words were like, Listen, I don't support Hamas. So he said, That's evil. He wasn't there. He said, But I'm Palestinian, like, ethnic ethnically. That's who's doing the evil but he said, That's not all of us. It was just a beautiful moment. As brothers I just appreciate the way you felt me. Speaker 1  39:11  Welcome. And I don't know anyone from back home that does support hemas But I bet I can find one way faster than you can. Todd Stiles  39:25  Thanks, buddy. Can we thank Matt again? Yeah, that's your monitor another man that I've grown to love and I want you to hear from his Cantus blonde So Ken's gonna join me on the platform as well. And Kent, again, just in chatting with him multiple times is really helped me grow I've got so far to go steal but he's really helped me in understanding how to really have a heart for all kinds of ethnicities. He was there as a businessman and as as a missionary. So can't take some time and share with What's your perspective on some of this and how you've remained missionary, even while you were there and lived in the middle of some of these very crises that occurred randomly. Speaker 2  40:09  One of the stories we heard early on, well, a backup, we've been there twice, a total of about 10 years, we were there from 89 to 94, I was working in news and audio and video production. Well, I could hear me this Oh. And then we had 20 years in between, and we were back from 2014, to 2019. And my wife and I managed to guesthouse on the Sea of Galilee. Overall, probably the best 10 years of our lives, from the standpoint of knowing that our faith geographically and spiritually is centered there. I've met a handful of Palestinians who say they can claim and I didn't mean to accentuate that word, what they have said is that we can trace our lineage back to the time of Christ, when nobody taught me that in any church, that simply wasn't there. The verse that Matt referred to, you know, from x to, you know, talks about that list of nations. And the second to the last one is the Arabs that are gathered together. The the fascinating thing about that is all of those nations listed there within the Roman Empire at the time of Christ. So essentially the known world, you can debate that all you want, but the known world in the Middle East, had come together in Jerusalem, they were, this was the town, the city, the village, where people went north and south and east, and occasionally West for trade routes, and all kinds of things. It really was a center, not a massive place. But the fact that everybody came through there. If I don't start this now, I'll never get back to it. I guess one of the things that I wanted to say, based on what pastor had told me on the missional aspects of it, is knowing what we know, with what we're watching in the news over the past seven weeks is, what do we do with that horror that's happening out there? And what do we do with the good news in the midst of that? For the first three weeks, my wife and I were down a rabbit hole, following the various news feeds. Coming out of Israel, we didn't follow anything coming out of America, we only followed Israeli feeds. And, and they were just horrifying, without commenting on the accuracy of any of it, because we can't, it's just what's in front of us. And if you're not praying, you will end up being dragged down the direction that they're telling you to go. You have to find some way to exercise some discernment when you see all this stuff. The but still, it was it was a very dark, dark time, we began to contact a lot of our friends to say is anybody from among the congregation's? When I say congregations the ones that we knew were largely believing Jews who had found Jesus Christ. I'm talking about fellowships where they were speaking Hebrew, not English. When we were there, the first time now 30 years ago, there were a great many fellowships that were begun by missionaries from other nations. And there will be Hebrew speakers there. But everything was done in English primarily. But now that's not the case. And so we started getting lists of names. We didn't know the kids who were on the front line, but we knew some of their parents whose kids had been sent to Gaza or who have been called up in the reserves. And it's just like, it's like, oh, God, oh, God, you have got to do something here. And among the very first prayers, was, you know, Lord, we need you to pour out Your Spirit on all nations, everybody in Gaza, everybody on the other side of the line, so that they know who the Messiah is. Because as Matt said, this is not going to end until you know him. So let's, so what do we do with the good news? We have our opportunities here to share whether we do it or not as between us and God. But that's what we're called to do. All of mankind is eligible for this. Everyone know Pastor Todd mentioned earlier that, in fact, in this morning's message, the fact that we're beyond post Christian, we're into anti Christian. So if you want to stand up for Jesus Christ, people are gonna get in your face and hurry. Does that stop what we're supposed to do? Going back all the way to the Psalms. I found this fascinating. We learned a number of years ago and omissions class. Psalm 67, verse one and two, the Lord says, may God be gracious to us and bless us. May he make his face shine upon us so that your way may be known on Earth and your salvation to all nations. Well, the Jews were supposed to be a missionary people. Salvation is coming out of Zion. Well, we know that through Jesus Christ. We know that today at least I've met a number of young men and women under 30s. Israeli born and raised who are followers of Jesus Christ, who have literally gone out to all the places that Israelis go after they finish the army. and they go out to play for six months or a year. And these guys go out to share faith with them. Salvation is coming out of Zion, the numbers of believers in the in the Arab community is, I don't know, 100 fold more than what you have from the Jewish community. The, to a large extent the history of Christianity in that area, post x. For those of you who know that part of your word, most of the vast majority of the early believers were Jewish, who came to faith. And that's a whole nother story. We won't go into all that here. Sorry, you're good. Okay. The other thing is, so how do we engage with people, when our civilization has moved, so far from what our grandparents do? When this, the idea of having a biblical foundation had some merit to it, you could hit one out of two people and find somebody who could quote Scripture and Old Testament stories to you and things like this, they knew this not anymore. What is God called us to do when we look at something like what's happening in Israel? And realize that people are killing each other every day? Or almost every minute of every day? To a certain extent? And how do we share with them? Knowing that we have the answer, neither of them are interested in that answer on the front, on the front of things. Jesus call to us hasn't changed, he hasn't changed, his word hasn't changed. It doesn't matter how difficult the situation is, or how opposed to us the people are that we're facing. Now, you've covered so much, Matt, it's just it's it's difficult to without just repeating the things that he's that he was, was saying, the concept of probably 90 95% of Jews are, let's just say agnostic, rather than say atheist, because they have a very strong concept of God, but they don't follow him. Now, for most people, that's a shock. I mean, if they hadn't kept the Torah, and the Old Testament, what would we have to read? You know, if out of them God hadn't sent Jesus to be born, what would we have, but for the Jewish people, God chose them to start this whole thing off. Now, there's really no debate about that scripturally the importance it takes in our lives now, that's where the discussion can begin. And far as the covenants and so forth, and that's not what we're here to discuss. Now, this will be for another discussion later on. To me, what it's saying is a certain part of my prayer, I give over to the Jewish people, because of the of the history of our Messiah, because of the fact that he's coming back to Jerusalem and not to Hong Kong, or New York, or London. I don't know why God planned it this way. But he did. And so for me, I look at that. And I think, all right, there's going to be 144,000, who have not known a woman who are going to be taking the scriptures all around Israel in the world. There are things like this in the scripture that you have to read and realize, okay, this was God's choice. It's not mine. Are they lovers of Palestinians? No, am I a lover of Palestinians? There's only one answer for that. And you got to check your heart, as to how you're going to answer that. We've spent a lot of time around around Muslims as well, not not in Israel so much, but in other places, and heart just wrenches sometimes when I want to sit down and talk to the Muslims because I, I know the truth. But how can I tell them the truth without condemning their faith? How can I speak to their heart, and not to the decision that they have made somewhat blindly at some point in their past? Knowing what we know, just look at the response of a lot of people who have come down on the side of Hamas, you know, over the past six or eight weeks and thinking you're behind this. Speaker 2  48:59  But when I sit down across from a cup of coffee, then how do I address that? How do I speak to their heart? And say, well, here's who Jesus is that come back. Oh, well, no, you haven't read the Quran? Oh, no, I have. Not all of it, I have read bits of it. Their version of Jesus is quite different from ours. They are not the same. Their view of Allah is not the same as God. We're coming from different places. And when you're going to approach people who are presenting points of view that are so radically different from our own, I'd strongly suggest fasting, in addition to prayer, because you want to work from here. You cannot work from the press and you cannot work from your head. You cannot work from any form of media. When you sit down, you have to approach them as Christ would have approached them. Okay, it's easy to say that sitting up here is quite another to do that. For example, some of you know I drive for Lyft which means I have all kinds of people on the car. I had a guy from Sudan. I had a long trip I picked them Up in Ames, we brought him back down here. And I asked him, I want to see what he thinks about this current conflict. He's a businessman, civil engineer. He said, I'm not. I'm not a religious man, but I'm a Muslim. He was very sure about that. But our points of view were opposed at every, at every area. And I can say, Well, the truth about Jesus simply, it's, it's what it is, he did come he did die. He did raise again, that is incontrovertible. He said, You know, it's not. You go, Okay, if I'd had his background, that's exactly how I would have responded. witnessing to people who have completely other views requires a point of compassion that I am praying and fighting for all the time. Because otherwise, I'll take my stance and assume it's right all the time. And then I have no ground. from which to from which to work. I have to find some way not to step into their world but to understand their world. Yeah. Because if we go back to Jesus words, this is the only way that I can stay missional. Remember, when Jesus was talking to the woman and the Samaritan woman, and one of the things that he told her right away was one, well, and Hebrew, believe me a time is coming when you will worship the Father, neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem, you Samaritans, which is Jews and assyrians intermarrying. Sometime after the time of Solomon, you worship what you don't know. We worship but we do know because salvation is from the Jews, yet a time is coming, and has not come true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. And they are the kinds of worshipers the Father seeks. Nowhere in that sentence is your ethnic background. Nowhere and it simply isn't there anywhere. In the words of Jesus with the exception of maybe two things. One is to the Jew first and to the Greek. Paul reiterates that Paul also later says, but hard times will be visited on the Jews first, and then to the green, which is about as equitable as you can get. I think. Jesus goes on to say in chapter in John, chapter 10, I've got other sheep that are not of the sheep fold and must bring them also, they too, will listen to my voice, one flock, and one shepherd. This is where the plurality is just tossed in the bin. Anyone can come to Jesus, at any time from anywhere. But there's just one Jesus, how do we present that was loved with caring and with compassion with people who hold different points of view. Matthew, the verse that we all know that we just heard this, when we had our missions missions week, about six eight weeks ago, Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you. There's no divisions, there's no lines, there's no borders, there's no border guards, there's no passports, none of that stuff is here. And then to to quote to what Matt referred to earlier, from x to five, now there were staying in Jerusalem, God fearing Jews from every nation. This was the time of Pentecost, one of the three feasts that all the Jews must come to Jerusalem for. So you had the Parthians the means the Elamites residents of Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt and parts of Libya and your serene visitors from Rome, both Jews and converts, cretins and Arabs. And when those people, those the Arabs that I had met said, Well, yeah, we can trace our family back to the time of Christ. I go. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe you can't find the birth certificate. But it makes perfect sense that you know, that you came from that area of the Middle East broadly, you know, broadly speaking, it certainly can be home for you, when it was faith in the Lord. The there's a gap bridging that takes place and Ephesians. And it's the only thing that I have found specifically that tells me what the answer is to the Middle East crisis. And it's Ephesians two, four, he himself is our peace, who has made both parenthetically Jew and non Jew in the entire list from x to he has made them both one and is broken down the middle wall of separation to as to create one new man from the two, thus making peace. That's it, there isn't anything else that's going to change this. This war is just the the worst in a long string, at least five or six wars since 48. There's all kinds of stories that can be told there. The fact is, without Jesus, this conflict is going to continue going in various forms, until the time when the Lord returns. I do not see personally that changing and I think it's gonna get far worse. If you read Revelation, you'll see it is going to get far worse. If we're looking at even a moderately literal translation of what's what's written there, so for me, his This is how we stay missional is we come back to what are Jesus words? And the rest of the New Testament? What do they say to us about sharing our faith? Proverbs 1130, the fruit of the righteous is a tree of life. And he that winds souls is wise. Second Timothy four, to preach the word be ready in season and out of season, correct, rebuke, and encourage with great patience and teaching. And First Peter 315. In your hearts revere Jesus Christ as Lord. We were talking to somebody here at the church last Sunday, coming out what's what's the difference between a Christian and a man a woman of God? Whose oil lamp is full, who is is not? High, it's, we would love to say, once saved always say, and that's not the debate. The fact is, are you following Christ, one of the things I love coming out of here was the fact that the encouragement is to read our Bibles at least five times a week. I didn't hear that any of the other churches in any country that we've been, we've been a number of those. That's not something it's been. It's been drilled into us and in a good way. The See, I can't speak from my heart if I don't know the word. If it's not hidden in there. No less Dyson against you, Lord, hide your Hydra word inside my heart. I can't love somebody unless I know the character of Jesus as it isn't his word. And as I discover in his prayers in the times of, of listening, which are really few, I need to be more and more. But what God has done. And this would be the last bit is how he has given me opportunities to share not just opportunities, but then the desire to finally get beyond the fear of man, and start talking to complete strangers about him. Especially if I'm the one that has to come up with the with the entry phrase to get in. This year, I've had a lot of co pays, peachy Cairo, all kinds of things for injuries and stuff. But when you're laying in that chair, or on that bench, you've got some times 2030 minutes, if you can't find a way to bring Jesus into that, and you need to go back and start to pray. That's a captive audience. That's just why it may seem like a small area, but I'm sure more than one person here has had at least one trip to the to the doctor this past year. And as I said, I drive for Lyft. When you're once you get in the car less than 10 years old, or over 10 miles per hour with the door locks, they're not going anywhere. You know, so you've you've pretty much got him at that point. But that's the opportunity. I didn't see that coming. And that they're in the backseat, I've got him for five to 25 minutes, or whatever the right happens to be, I've got to find a way. And Christmas season. Oh, if you can't start a conversation about Jesus, now you need to check your own heart and see if you are, well, you and God can work that detail out. But if what he's done in you is not enough for you just start a conversation and share it with someone, you better get on your face to find out what this is about. We are the ones we're going the others in this city, we have the way of life. And so many people are running the other way from Jesus. And it is our responsibility to do this. God has a huge grace for us. He just wants us to try. So when I look at this, Speaker 2  58:41  the question is what are you willing to do? How uncomfortable Are you willing to be? So try and get something out about Jesus, especially in this particular month. The fact I'm going to create a playlist, when you are listening to the hymns, the beginning I thought I'll just gonna play list for my car. And I'm going to have all these songs and the songs all the hymns and come up with the carols that have just scripture in the lyrics. And just put that on repeat in my car. And I'll be doing that from now on until the end of the new year. And that because that's going to be my ready in. And you can do that anywhere in the HyVee checkout line. wherever you happen to be. Look for opportunities, ask God for opportunities, and he will give them if you ask and how much more joy is there when someone comes to face? Oh, we know what the Scripture says about that. So yeah, doesn't cover it for right now. Okay, a couple questions. Todd Stiles  59:31  Thank you. Sorry, I thought I'd give him an invitation for me to hear it's good preaching buddy letter brain heart. Based on your last words that have conversation, starting things that that would really heightened the need to make sure our definitions and language isn't loose. So that if we're starting one of these combinations with a Palestinian or an ethnic Jew or an Arab or something that we don't throw out a coalition starter that actually offends right off the bat. Drew? Speaker 2  1:00:01  No, I mean, Matt met said this right? We can discuss this over a cup of coffee afterwards, we can get into more detail. There are many, many questions if you really want to get into the the geopolitical aspects of the Middle East, and there may be some value in that. But if that's the goal of your conversation is to establish a winner or loser there. No, you're wasting your time. Personally, Todd Stiles  1:00:21  when you were there, did you find and this is probably an opinion answer at the conflict between the Palestinians and then the amendment? Sure word is right here, Matt can but like, you know, the ones that are conflicting was it as rampant just in natural life, as it seems to us to be officially a you minister to both Palestinians and an ethnic Jews to write you had? Speaker 2  1:00:49  Well, I would hesitate to say ministering in the way that if you were a church planter in a foreign country, where you're so intentional, we manage the guest house, I worked in news, I had other responsibilities. I think the the key is, can you bring a conversation away from the Flashpoint while acknowledging that person's sincerity and having that opinion. And if and that takes work, you know, to do that, with the people that I knew personally, because they knew I was there as a follower of Christ, and that's the work that I was doing. They knew that I wasn't Jewish, and I wasn't Palestinian. Whenever I started conversation with somebody, I tried to get to the point of establishing why I'm here because I felt like God opened the door for me to come here as a follower of Jesus. There are little things you can do. For example, when I'm overseas, I never use the word Christian. Christian is laden with I wouldn't use the word nuance nuance is way too subtle. For some of the negative aspects that both Jews and Arabs have concerning the label Christian, I am a follower of Jesus Christ, where I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ doesn't change a thing, but you don't raise the barriers and start the conversation. I can. That's Todd Stiles  1:02:21  a good word. I, I want to kind of push back a bit, but I appreciate that because I think in other parts of the world, no, not here. I don't think you're right. I think I've just never heard it quite put that way in that part of the land. But I think other parts of the world, if you say Christian, they think that means you're an American. So I think you make a valid point, like Speaker 2  1:02:40  not just in the Middle East, that's almost anywhere else in the West as well. There's a friend of ours who's a Druze. Matthew knows what a Druze is, is an Arab. Most of them come from Syria in that area. But there's several 1000 of them that live in generally small villages within the the northern part of the land. One of these young men Well, he's not young at my age, came to face about 15 years ago, when his daughter was was healed. While in the hospital, a Jewish believing nurse came by prayed for her. She got up walked out, it was so they didn't know it wasn't terminal, but she was very, very ill. And nothing was having any impact while she, the nurse prayed, the daughter basically came to and walked out the next day he gave his heart to Christ. Well, he lives in a village of around 20,000 People Makara, which you know what that is, most of those people in that village are of the same Drew's faith, which is got some similarities to Islam. That's another nother discussion as well. He was immediately ostracized, he and his whole family, he couldn't get jobs. He's been suffering ever since. So there is real persecution. The moment you accept Jesus, when a Muslim accepts Jesus, when an Orthodox Jew accepts Jesus, they're going to be hammered by everybody of their former faith. That is a very real persecution that goes on today in all three of those areas. We know so little about persecution, you made a point several weeks ago about it's hard to have deep compassion for people. Unless you've been persecuted somewhere and the shoulda known suffering of some kind. People who come to faith in the Middle East, they pay a really significant price. If you're in a Muslim majority country, not Israel. And you come to faith it can cost you your life, and quite often does, and many other nations too, but just to probably found the dogleg there. Sorry, Todd Stiles  1:04:28  Brown. Thanks for just helping me be a better pastor. And yeah, even understanding history better. And from one, it's just been very helpful to get to know more about what you experienced there and how it's helped them. Basil, thank you. Can we thank Kent for just this? Yeah, I think it's important that you hear from these two men. They'd been a real help to me and there's a lot packed in there. I think they're offering to you again, if you want to talk more, see they'll be available afterwards. But all that was to help us identify the problem. This is a seminar so I don't feel bad for the deluge of information and that we're still got 55 minutes left, and you knew it when you came in two to four, we're gonna use every minute. Okay. Because we I think we've established, at least I feel like we have, and I think you would bear witness that just so many factors make our language and focus, Paramount. So let me see if I can provide a prescription. I'll start with some of the phrases we used earlier. In this section, I'm going to give you some examples that would be better than what we did earlier. And I'm going to offer to Matt and to Kent a chance, if they want to edit on the fly, I think they probably have a better sense of this than I do. But I've taken a stab at helping develop a little better language regarding the phrases we looked at. So tip number one. Instead of using God's chosen people, or a right to the land, we'll use air quotes around some of these. Instead of using those loosely, or culturally, let's tighten them up with biblical definitions. In contrast to like cultural or even Christianly, cultural definitions, so here's some examples of ways we could say that, and these would be representative of various views. If you don't hear yours off the bat, don't throw eggs yet. Let me finish the list. For instance, you could say, God's chosen people as a nation. So if you're a citizen of Israel, you're chosen by God. I wouldn't be a fan of that phrase. But that would be a specific phrase, would you admit that? That's someone who at least be delineating exactly what they mean whether it's right or wrong, like, it's clear. Here's another one. The people who the people God shows as the avenue to bring Christ into the world was the Jewish ethnicity. It's a little more clear about what God did and who he chose, right? There's another option. God's chosen people, which is now anyone who believes in Jesus dot, dot, dot, that's a phrase you could use. Here's another option. God's chosen people are now ethnic Jews all over the world. Maybe that's what you do, or you land you could use that. It gives a qualifier more modifiers. Here's another one. God's chosen people are now the church which is full of both Jews and Gentiles. That again, more qualifiers, modifiers. Here's one about the land. And Matt has told me before he said, you know, Todd, that really is the issue over there. And he held it and unpack more of that with you if you want. But that was a interesting conversation, too. But here's one about the land, you can say this. So a little long. Hang with me. If you landed here, you can say the land was actually given to the Jewish people when they were a theocracy. And they received it from God, because they were the ones from Abraham, but they lost it due to disobedience. And now that all Christians are considered Abraham's seed. The physical land isn't really a God's people issue any longer. You could say that, you may not agree with that. But see how clarifying that is. The person listening would hear it and be able to converse with you. And not just make assumptions. Matt, and Ken, any suggestions on that one about the land or about God's chosen people that you'd want to add some benefit to? Regardless of the use, like anyway, anything you want to add to that just picked up, pick the mic up and jump in? And I'm open to correction? For sure. You know, you'll never embarrass me. So would you mind standing? Yeah, that'd be good. Right there. Speaker 1  1:09:17  Yeah, I think when I was when I've told you in the past, the issue really is is the land. It is because there's there's a lot of other Arab and Jewish communities that don't have the same conflict like that around the world. And when when you take a stance and about the land, it, it can easily exclude a certain group of people that Jesus didn't when he was in the land Speaker 1  1:10:01  Yeah, I think I'm trying to remember what you said about the times of COVID. He said, thinking about it. Mission biblically mission Lee Todd Stiles  1:10:14  in letting the medical folks take care of the medical Yes. And not Speaker 1  1:10:17  not medically. Yeah, I think this is really the same situation. Because making your, your phrase more specific, right? It, it's going to force you to back that up with being that specific. And when you do that, you're going to either go down the rabbit hole of medical, political or biblical. And so, you know, even if you do make your phrase specific you have to, you're gonna you're gonna face that crossroad you're gonna have to choose to make it biblical or, or political, cultural. Okay. Todd Stiles  1:11:15  So if you gotta interrupt here for a second, yeah. So if you are sensitive, he's saying be more general, I would probably disagree with that. Because I would be willing to accept the fact that if I can be specific and back it up, that would be worth the conversation. He may be right that maybe that's not worth it. I don't know, that might be a thing, we'd have to almost test and see. So just beware, he's saying, if you get specific, you'd better make sure you know what you believe about your specifics. So I kind of what you're saying matter? Am I misinterpreting you? Yeah, Speaker 1  1:11:46  I guess I am saying that. But I'm also saying, if you're gonna be specific, about, like, I'm okay, if you're being specific, biblically. But, but if you're gonna choose to be specific, politically, you gotta get it, you got to also be specific biblically. And I say this, because a lot of biblical opinion, or sorry, political stances, and political geopolitical opinions can be backed up by some theology or some biblical verses, and it gets Gray, it gets a gray area where it's not very specific. So I think it is a good tool to start the conversation and really trying to understand the other person or want to lead to, to ministering to them. It does help. And but I think you have to have some context. And someone like Kant has a lot of context, because he's lived there. And he spent a lot of time there. And, you know, I think for for people here, if, if this is a subject that you'd like to know, more, get that context somehow. And yeah, Todd Stiles  1:13:24  that's a good answer there that if you want to be specific, be willing to invest in context learning. Yeah, that's, that's a helpful answer. Thank you. It's good answer. Let's move on here and see if I can give you some other ideas on things to say that I think are actually more helpful. Again, not trying to say that I that all these are, in a certain viewpoint, these are just more specific, modifying clarifying phrases. They each have their own consequence, but at least they're not so general, that they just, you know, it's like a grenade in the middle of who knows what. For instance, instead of saying, we stand with Israel, or Palestinians, or the problem, said, of saying that narrowly or politically, I would say widen it with a biblical perspective so that your focus is missional. So in one case, we're going to try to use language that's biblical missional. Here our focus is missional and biblical, for instance, you could say something like this. I think it's right to support those who are defending their citizens. That seems to be what the nation of Israel is doing, because say that you're standing with them in a geopolitical or national sense. You could say something like this. Hamas is evil and terrorizing not only Israel but cannibalizing their own. You can say that it's a mercy, compassionate stance towards the Palestinians who don't like what Hamas is doing. They're being ravaged by If you could say something like this, while I support the nation of Israel's right to protect their people in country, I also support saving as many lives as possible and praying for all the people in that area. Because they seemed like the goal is to save lives, regardless of their ethnicity. You could say something like this just war theory, that's an actual theory about how to conduct a war. just war theory declares governments have the responsibility to protect their people without undue damage or loss to civilians. So I support governments who pursue peace through strength, you could say something like that? Well, even one more, I support the nation of Israel, because they are an ally for us in the region. But I also pray for it help God's people throughout the region, regardless of their ethnicity, or nationality. So you may not agree with some of those, you might like some not like some, I'm just trying to show you that. As you think about certain phrases and words, and I've given you four samples, all of those. It's just kind of lobbed out there have a host of meanings. And I'm encouraging you to specify, clarify and modify so that you have a better conversation that follows. Okay. Matt and Kent, any suggestions on maybe those two phrases? I'll start with Qantas time we stand with Israel or Palestinians or the problem or something along those lines? Kent, anything you want to add quickly? Three, to one. Speaker 2  1:16:52  Ask me the question. Do I stand with Israel? The short answer would be yes. But it doesn't take me about three or four seconds to realize no, there's so much more behind that. And so the idea is to be slow to speak and quick listen, how many ways we can apply that scripture. But certainly it applies here. We we should almost never launch out with the first thing that comes, you know, comes to our mind, especially in this particular area. The anecdotally, a few years ago, a couple of our kids were with us and we were visiting some some people down in the south, near nearby Sheva. A couple of local Israelis were running a place and we just said, Did you consider yourself a Jew or an Israeli? How do you look at yourself? So don't worry Israeli said, Well, why not? Jewish? said, Well, we're no we're not we're Jewish. We can't really get away from that. But I choose to be an Israeli. And they listed a number of technological, medical military accomplishments that the Jewish people have achieved, for lack of a better phrase over the last let's just say 75 to 100 years. Because it was a sense of pride for them. Being Jewish, he really couldn't do anything about that. That's just what how he was born and his grandparents and on back as far as he knew. And he wasn't a person of faith at all. I mean, he's got Jewish not in his passport, just the state of Israel. I believe that's correct. Is that right on passports? He doesn't say Jewish in those passports, as far as you know, Israeli passports? I don't think it's listed. Speaker 1  1:18:34  Used to so they have, they have IDs, the US uses a Christian Muslim Jew doesn't anymore. I don't remember the reason why. But Speaker 2  1:18:47  what I saw was that the average Israeli did not at this very anecdotal, did not want to be known Jewish. They wanted to be known for who they were as a nationality. And for me, that was a real eye opener as to how far away from God they've moved, and how forward toward how far toward the sector. Todd Stiles  1:19:05  So I want to concur with Ken and this is a good nudge. We want to follow the Bible's admonition let your Yes be Yes. And your No, no, like, clarity is great. Good point. Thank you. We also want to build a follow up this goes to what Matt was saying, follow up our clarity and succinctness with good specific reasons. So if you were to have a no even for that question, you want to have a good reason for it. And explain that with Yeah, we're happy Yes. So that's that's good word that let's not dance around a simple answer if we don't have to, right. But let's we want to back up our short answer. In a way that's biblical missional. So a lot of information here. I want to kind of wind down some of the provided a prescription so to speak to some of our language viruses, if we'll call them that by sharing with you kind of what helped me arrive at language I thought was most helpful. So here I'll probably get more personal. And this is where we'll probably venture into probably the most amount of disagreement. Okay. I think it's important for you to realize I'm probably sharing with you really what's helped me converse, I believe, more compassionately. And I would even say from my angle more effectively with people who have interest in this area or are from these ethnicities, okay? A language, the language and focus issue for me really began to take root, when I just admitted to myself and just I believed the Abrahamic Covenant was fulfilled. None of that's gonna probably start some disagreement off the bat. But suddenly, it just simplified a lot of things for me. And enabled me to understand a lot of the conflict. And a, I would say, maybe a different way than maybe what I had been willing to consider before. I probably had believed this for a while, but I think it began to take a lot clearer shape recently. Now roads are some here may not know what the Abrahamic covenant is, that's the covenant God made with Abraham in Genesis 12, in which God promised Abraham a number of things, including the land. And so for me to say, Well, I believe that's been fulfilled. How has that motivated you taught? How has that been a personal benefit to speaking more compassionately and effectively? Here's what I think if I if I were to be nailed down, like, what's your thesis statement for this two hour seminar? This would probably be it right here. That because I personally believe that the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled the conflict, in my opinion, as well as the previous ones. It's not a theological one. It is a geopolitical one. So during these end times, I believe the current crisis has far less prophetic ramifications. It does have some, but far less than perhaps we wish it had my opinion. And I think it has a much greater missional ramifications. See, a lot of folks would love to engage about in times talk and what's next, as opposed to like what Ken said, what's now what should we do right now for the mission of God. It's hard to have that conversation. But we'd love to talk about 666. and name your in time kind of concept or thing. I tend to think because I believe the cover has been fulfilled and believe I could show the scripturally that it is far less about a theological issue. It's much more about a missional opportunity. It's not a political or national thing. This is an evangelistic moment, as has been most of these things. So I think you're wondering, like what Todd, how do you arrive at that conclusion? So maybe we're thinking I'm not sure what that even means. So can you explain to others are well aware, and they're like, man, Todd, I'm waiting, you know, I'm ready to tackle this with you. Let me just provide some evidence for why believe that, okay. Kind of how I got there, you'll want to write these things down. So if you have a pen or some paper, I'd encourage you to jot these scriptures down. This goes back to what I said earlier, I do believe that probably two people could see the scriptures and have a different end interpretation. And man, I completely respect and graciously interact with those brothers and sisters. And I wouldn't want the same from you. Because this is not a symposium or form. It's a seminar I want to share with you how I arrive at what I arrive at and how it's helped me. So I do believe there's a truth line and a timeline in play here. Regarding the Abrahamic covenant, how it has been fulfilled, and how it helps us now realize we're not trying to work something nationally or politically we're just trying to be theologically missional in whatever opportunity God has given us. I think there's a truth line and a timeline. I'm gonna give you the truth line of the Covenant first, the way I see it. There's another system of thought, that's different. Understand that. Here's where I land and how I think it's really helped me. I think the fulfillment of The Covenant is stated in Scripture. First of all, so you can write this down. I think it's theologically stated. Second Corinthians 120 says that every one of God's promises is yes in Christ. Now the context is talked about a yes or no answer is different things. But this statement is a pointer to up to an operational factor in God's economy, that Christ is an is the ultimate fulfillment of what God promises and prophesies. That all the promises really focus in on and find that fulfillment in him. Some don't see that that way, I understand. I think that does mean that Galatians 316, and 17 is another good scripture about this. Here he says the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. This is Galatians 316. He does not say and to seeds, as though referring to many, but referring to one and to your seed, who is Christ. So when I read that verse, I take it to mean, the promises spoken Abraham were about him and his seed Christ. So when Christ came, the promises culminated, they were fulfilled, admittedly, some don't see that. I do. Galatians, 327 and 29, I might not read all of these scriptures, you may want to write them down. He speaks about Abraham seed. And if we are been baptized into Christ and been close to Christ, there's not Jew or Greek slave or free male or female, but we're wanting Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed errs, according to the promise. Paul here says that any believer is an heir of Abraham's promise. The ones made that were fulfilled in the seed. So if we're all heirs of this promise, than either, we have to say we have a right to the land as well. We have to be willing to say no, they were fulfilled in Christ. And that's what we're receiving is Christ, the fulfillment of all of God's covenants. Again, not everyone sees that I understand. Romans nine, six through eight is another good verse showing how God's promises did not fail. And then Ephesians, 211 and 12. Kitt mentioned the divisions to so beautiful verse, how Christ is brought together, Jew and Gentile. We were foreigners, to the covenants of promise, it says, but now we're no longer that. So again, you can take these in multiple ways, I take them to mean that God had a central purpose and message in the prophets, and that was to point us to Christ, who would fulfill everything he had promised. And so when Christ came, I do believe it fulfilled what he promised Abraham, in a general overarching sense, I'll get clear, I'll get more specific than that about some of the elements of the land, the people, stuff like that. Now, one of the accusations, people lodged against those who believe has been fulfilled. And so it, it puts the conflict in Israel in a different framework, when you realize this. Those wonder accusations is like this. They say, we'll talk then are you a replacement theologian? So if you've heard that some of you don't know what they're asking you, so are you getting rid of Israel? And I'd say, that's not true at all. In fact, I don't know anyone who gets rid of Israel as a nation described in the Old Testament. Paul is so thankful that God is going to save a remnant of them. He's also thankful that through them the oracles of God and the promises and those things came so not at all. I think it's a false accusation against those who would hold to to an Abrahamic Covenant fulfillment. In the same way that if someone were to say to me taught, I don't believe that certain spiritual gifts are available. If they said it to me, I wouldn't say to them, I bet you don't even believe in the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't say that to them. I wouldn't. That wouldn't logically make sense. They're gracious, they're God fearing Jesus loving. They just have a different view. On certain gifts, based on certain scriptures, I wouldn't lodge an accusation that they're getting rid of the Holy Spirit. I tend to think that's how the accusation feels this way. I think what the Holy what God's done is he's merged the two, in fact, can't even read it. There's one new man out of the two. There's one tree, there is a root, and there are some grafted in branches, but there's still one tree. So I maintain there is one people of God, it's the church. Like I would say to you, whether we agree or not, we can be gracious, I would say to you, that is the current God's chosen people. Does it mean that Israel wasn't once, ethnically and nationally and feel chronically God's chosen people who wouldn't negate that at all? But when Christ came and fulfill all of those promises, then Gentiles who were believers became heirs of those promises. I see it as an expansion as a merger, not as a replacement. Israel and Gentiles together in one family, the one new man, the single olive tree. So I think it's theologically staid, I'm just giving you my reasons. I think it's historically displayed. Let me give you some references. You'll want to read these, especially if you're pretty sure like, I don't believe this at all. Todd, I would like to challenge you with some references. I believe historically, Joshua does chronicle the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. In fact, Joshua 1123 says this, Joshua took the entire land in keeping with all that the Lord had told Moses and Joshua then gave it as an inheritance to Israel. According to their tribal a lots of tribal allotments after this, the land had rest from war. And then 10 chapters later in Joshua 21. So the Lord gave Israel, all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. The Lord gave them rest on every side, according to all he had sworn to their ancestors. None of that none of their enemies were able to stand against him, for the Lord handed over all their enemies to them. None of the good promises of the Lord that He had made to the house of Israel failed, everything was fulfilled. I love those verses, and I think it shows an Old Testament, immediate fulfillment of what he promised Abraham. Again, someone say, I'm not sure that's true. They would have ways to describe Well, that wasn't a full occupation, a full, you know, possession, good people on both sides. But as I've read more about the history of this, how Peter preached and acts to that, Christ, the fulfillment he witnessed in Acts 11, two canoes the first Gentile, Paul merge, both in Romans 11 emerge both in he Ephesians. Two, I think there's a historical element that we see an understanding that this was done and this is now God's people, the church. Also think it's ethnically applied. So it's scripturally stated, historically displayed ethnically applied. Meaning, again, I'm gonna repeat myself here, but Paul states pretty clearly that there is now you know, one new man, Jew and Gentile, that it doesn't matter about circumcision or uncircumcision, Jew or Gentile. And then I think it's logically concluded, it's if I can lay this out for you briefly before I moved to the timeline, and then we'll take some questions. Finally, the only five minutes I get out of this pretty good, right? I think is logically concluded, since according to Galatians, three and just follow my reasoning here, Christ is the seed. And the seed is the core of the covenant. When that seed came, the covenant was fulfilled, the lot, it's not a lot of words. But it is the core essentials of how I think that works. If you realize that the seed is Christ, He came, fulfilled all righteousness, He didn't destroy the law, he fulfilled the law. In Him, we're all heirs of Abraham, then it would make sense to say logically, he is the fulfillment of those covenants. So that's my truth line. in all candor, people in this room, other folks who've written other places, I mean, they could come and probably use the very same scriptures and share with you something, how they see it differently. And this is where I think Kent and Matt both said, you know, hey, you need to do your own research and figure out where you land. I have found that embracing this and realizing this makes those conflicts far less theological. And I'm not near as dependent on all those certain things happening over there. I don't have to side with one or not with the other, it just all seemed, became the simplest way to biblically understand what's going on. So that just really drove me like man, I think this is where I land. And though I have believed this for a few years, it has crystallized in the last probably 12 months. To give you a timeline that I think I could show biblically, how I think the covenant is fulfilled. So I should have put a slide for this, but I don't have it. So just follow my hands here. 2000 BC, the covenant is made with Abraham, in four BC, Christ's first coming, the kingdoms inaugurated and fulfilled, fulfilled the Christ, the covenants fulfilled and inauguration of the Kingdom. In 30 AD, the covenant I believe, will call ratified in the death of Christ. All the nations of the earth are blessed through him through his seed, Christ, purchases for God people to Himself, of every nation, language, tribe and tongue, all the nations of the earth are blessed. He ratifies the covenant, he declares his disciples This is now the new covenant. In 70, ad, the temples destroyed, left barren, meaning that systems obsolete and no more. And now we're waiting on is the second coming. I have no date for that, sorry. At that point, that kingdoms consummated, that's a very simple timeline from the Abrahamic Covenant 2000 BCE to when the temple is destroyed and 70 ad meaning that's not how we operate, you'll come to God through those sacrifices systems is through Christ who ratified the New Covenant 30 ad when he died, and now we're simply waiting on him to inaugurate the kingdom. I remind you that when Jesus came, He did say, The kingdom of God is at hand. And this is probably the difference. The core difference, one of the core differences between these two systems of thought, or people who have differences on this is the nature of the kingdom, some SEE the kingdom as completely literal and physical. And so Christ is coming to once again give it to Jewish people, for a set amount of time, that they, that Christ didn't bring the kingdom, he simply offered the kingdom and they rejected it. And so because they rejected it, we have to wait now until they accept it. And then it'll once again the kingdom for the Jewish people, that will then merge into a like an eternal kingdom for all people. That's a view of the kingdom that would allow you to have a different view than this. If you see the Kingdom more in a spiritual sense, which by the way, Jesus did say, My kingdom is not of this world thing is to pilot. So if you were to take that sense, and realize that we are heirs even now of Abraham's seed, you would say no, we see the kingdom and as one that actually did begin, when Christ came, he said, The kingdom of God is at hand. And now we're just waiting for what he inaugurated to be consummated when he comes back. I have deep friends who don't see it that way. I have close family who don't see it that way. They will say to you, I've got close family who don't see it my way, right? This isn't make someone sinful. If I could say this way, this will make them wrong. It does affect how they see the Middle East crisis. It does affect what words they use when they talk to people about the conflict in Israel, it does. It does affect how you use the words God's chosen people are right to the land. All those phrases are affected by when and how you see the Abrahamic Covenant fulfilled. And as one of your shepherds, I want to encourage you to give strong consideration to knowing why either you do see it fulfilled or why you don't bring specificity and compassion to that so that when you speak to those who are from that area or in you know that you're not using language loosely. Or net or or wrongly, to unintentionally communicate something you actually may not believe. Let me lastly, just share this thing with you then I will promise you I will take some questions. I think some of the things about this timeline. Make it wonderful Todd, you showed me a scripture for how he fulfilled the land part of the coven. it like you may not agree with that, but it is, at least there's some scripture there that says, Not one of God's promises failed and that Israel got everything that was promised to their ancestor. She does say that. You say total, what about the temple? Isn't that something to be rebuilt? Isn't that kind of like the focus it was destroyed, but aren't there those who say should come back. And so that's what's happening in the Middle East. They're, they're working now to get this thing rebuilt. Kit mentioned the scripture where Jesus said, It won't matter at a future time where you worship, that day is coming. And the temple was destroyed. Jesus said about himself, Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will raise it up. What was he doing in that verse? It's Matthew, I think he's John two. He was equating the temple with himself. Meaning once He raised us from the dead, and the temple is destroyed, I don't mean chronological, but he's saying, I am the temple. And if you think about it, his body is the church. So I easily arrive at this understanding that the temple is the body of Christ, it's Christ, it's the church, we are His abode. This is where he dwells, in us and among us. So I think that leans into an understanding that the covenant was fulfilled, God's chosen people are now his church full of Jew and Gentile, that helps me realize that what's happening over there, while important, it's something I can approach more geopolitically than necessarily, theologically I'm, I got to work in all these different angles and views, to make sure they fit over there. So you talk a lot about people, you know, as many of the sands of the shore and kings will come from you? Well, I think all of us would admit that that has happened in the sense that kings came from Abraham, just look at the Old Testament. Not only just one line, but you have a split line for Solomon, two lines of kings, both good and bad. I would invite you to read first Kings for 20. I don't have it in front of me. But there are an interesting phrases used speaking of Solomon's reign in which that says that there are as many as the sands of the sea. It seems to be the same poetic language used in Genesis to describe Yes, what I said I would do for you, Abraham, I have done seems to say that, just consider that and then lastly, of course, the word seed. Often I think we hear the word seed as referring to all the offspring. But biblically, when it says the seed of the Covenant, he speaking that Christ would be the one to come through Abraham, Christ is the seed. So keep all that in mind. Some have asked me before like, well, Todd, do you think there's a time when there's a new Jerusalem or a new heavens and I do? Can't was right, there's a reason is in that part of the world. I don't know what it is. But we know that there is a, a second coming of Christ. And I believe it's at the Mount of Olives, Jesus said, As you have seen me go in the same manner, I'll come again. So I just believe Jesus, it's going to be in that region, he'll come again, that begins what I believe is to be the day of the Lord judgment, new heavens and new earth, so I probably not probably I'm not one that subscribes to a, like the seven year period in which there is again the literal like National kingdom in which the Jews have the focus. Some do I don't think that's a sin to disagree on that. But I see us as in the same point, the tribulation, I think Christians will go through that we must enter the kingdom of God through much tribulation, the Bible says, Again, same verses can be seen differently. I'm saying St. You, my understanding of the Covenant being fulfilled does not negate the fact that at some point in the future Christ really turn will return to that geographical region. That doesn't negate that. And so all that to say this, it is my personal opinion that a view that sees the Abrahamic Covenant as being fulfilled in Christ is the simplest, clearest and cleanest way to not only make sense of the overarching narrative of the Bible. It's the simplest, clearest and cleanest way to see history through the Bible, and to make sense of what's happening in the Middle East right now. Other systems See the Bible through history. And I would rather see history through the Bible. So you have to make exceptions and allowances and adjustments to some degree with any view you adopt. I would encourage you to have the courage to analyze and examine where you land on some of these things. run them through the filter scripture lit the Word do the work. So that your considered inconsistencies or conflicts or your questions have the most available answers. I don't know if there's any perfectly manmade system. I like a chart. I mean, I like these timelines. Probably a lot cleaner than the charts I saw growing up to be frank with you. Maybe that charts right? I don't know, I tend to think the timeline that's of the Covenant seems to be a little cleaner and crisper. It seems to really fall in line with what we know is our combs razor. You know what that is? Right? That's the kind of principle that says the simplest explanation is usually the right explanation. So let's not make this harder than it is. I just want to encourage you to consider what's helped me make sense of over there and to develop language and focus that has been very helpful. And that is to see Christ as the centerpiece and the fulfillment of the covenant. And to realize that's a dangerous and messy geopolitical situation. It has some prophetic ramifications, but not near as many as it does missional opportunities. With that in mind, let's see if we can tackle some perplexities without me getting fired? No, I'm kidding you about that. And just see if we can help you as well. And again, I think we can disagree graciously. I would ask that it be a question maybe not a statement. Sometimes we ask questions to make a statement. If you have an honest question, that'd be good to hear. And so the question places over here is that right, Taylor. And I might need to call on Travis to help me here, Travis, you know, join me on the platform, grab a mic. And the word your primary teaching pastors, all of our elders can teach. They graciously allow us to do most of it. So I'll have Travis join me. And then we'll just see if we can tackle any questions. It might just be whistling, you know, that's a good point. I don't know or whatever. When overhead. Well, we can. And some may have been texted in. I did log in Tanner, but I'm not sure if five. Do you have them in front of you? Okay, we'll just let you either read them or show them? Or you got them? Okay. We'll start with you. Speaker 3  1:47:25  I just get to ask the questions I've eaten that's not true. Unknown Speaker  1:47:30  I'm roping you in today. Speaker 3  1:47:32  There are two of them. I'll just read them in order. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. This is the first time you're seeing these it is and that's okay. I'm not worried about that. They're great questions. First one is, is there anything biblical to suggest that we must protect Jewish people or treat them with a higher standard than, say, Arabs? Or that we as Christians, or they as Jews should be an ownership of Zion? Todd Stiles  1:47:56  Okay, that last question is a little tricky for me. I'm going to defer on that one. For now. I want to say to the first one, I think we treat all people as made image of God. Yeah, I'm just gonna be good that, you know, I told the man yesterday that Casper 10, boom, who was Corey Tim's father, when they came to court, his daughters off, they offered him a chance to not go to prison if he would not take any more Jews in and protect them. He was in the Netherlands, he was a Dutch Christian. He said, If someone knocks on my door tomorrow, I'm going to help him. And then he didn't qualify with a race or an ethnicity. And I'm not a big fan of the word race. I think we're all the human race. We had different ethnicities. But he didn't qualify it at all. He said, I'm going to help those in need. So I would say so the first one, I don't know of anything biblical to suggest we must protect Jewish people above others with a higher standard. I think that's biblical, no. Or that we as Christians, or they, as Jews should be the ownership of Zion. So that's a really good question. There are some systems of thought that would say they do have a divine right to the land. So I think that would be they would say, Jews would own Zion. I would like those are things I don't know about if is it an ethnic Jew? Is that the actual citizen of Israel? Like, what if someone's like, Matt, since he's an Israeli? Could he say, well, actually, I have a right to the land, even though that promise was made to a Palestinian, who's an Israeli citizen was made to an ethnic Jew isn't made to ethnic Jews over the world. And so I'm not going to speak for them. I don't want to and no way want to disparage those who don't see it the way I do. I don't want to ever do that. I just don't know how to answer the second one. My sense is that God will settle that when he returns. I do think that part of the world is Special in God's economy for some reason he's returning there, he will set the new heavens and new earth in Jerusalem. That's all gonna be part of the kingdom when it's consummated. So there's something special about it. I tend to think that lands been part of the promise has been fulfilled. So I don't think there's a divine right to the land. In the current earthly situation. I think there is going to be a replacement at some point where, where that land will be special again. I don't know how that's going to happen. And maybe that's where those charts maybe that's the right way. I don't know. I don't see it that way. But so I'm gonna defer on the second part for now. Let's go you will add to that. Question. Asker. Unknown Speaker  1:50:48  Do you want to take questions from the floor? Todd Stiles  1:50:50  Is it a question? Is it a question, sir? Great. Sure. Can you come to the mic so we can get this on the audio? We are using this for later? Speaker 3  1:51:02  Yeah. If you have a question, you can come on up to this mic. Right. So our cameras on Todd Stiles  1:51:05  this one, too. So you'll be audible and visible. Sarah? Good news, right. Let's get this mic on Speaker 4  1:51:14  in relationship to that question. Why do you think throughout the history of the world, and even now, among some, not all, that there is an actual hatred for Jewish people? And I think that's why some Israelis don't want to be identified as Jewish. So why do you think there is that hatred? Todd Stiles  1:51:38  So I guess the best answer is, I don't know. I would tie it to something, though. Sure. I'm gonna tie it to something. I believe that there's been a partial hardening of Israel, as I think is Romans 11. Is that right, Travis? It may be that the partial harden of Israel ties into perhaps the amount of persecution or opposition they receive or hatred they receive. I don't know that. That's probably just a guess on my part. Yeah. So I don't know the answer to that, sir. Speaker 3  1:52:08  Yeah, they're probably too brief of answers. But yeah, I think there's some punishment there. I think there's some jealousy from other nations that have played into that for sure. So I think it's a little bit of a combination of both of those, the why they've been hated for so long. You're ready for another question? Speaker 5  1:52:26  I guess so. Yeah. We already mean you Speaker 3  1:52:32  FFC, subscribe to a covenant or dispensational theology. Todd Stiles  1:52:37  So we're not going to land in either camp, we would say. Some people hold more elements of one than the other, some or maybe a hybrid. So yeah, I would say that there are aspects in which we're covenant there probably aspects in which we're dispensational. In the sense, you could say, we're really we might see two dispensations. There's an older one, and there's a newer one, you could say that. So I know dispensation, like we do believe in a rapture, we believe in a rapture. So I don't know that we would say either one of those, I wouldn't want to pin those on our side, as this is the kind of church we are. So fair to say, what would you say to that? Speaker 3  1:53:21  Yeah, teaching membership class, again, the documents that we point our people to our core doctrine, our core doctrines, our position papers in our, the, our faith and message. So if you want to know where we land, look at those. Do we have opinions? Absolutely. Do you want to see where we land, look at those and the, our faith and message is not specifically dispensational? Or, or a covenant, the theology, it's neither. Todd Stiles  1:53:49  So I'll give you a good book that compares the two. And then I'll share with you a very transparent fence I was given the book that I'd recommend that compares these two, very factually, and I think in a helpful way is called identifying the seed. I will be frank with you, a covenant guy wrote it. But I've heard from several dispensationalist, and I've heard from other people, that is a pretty good comparison of the two strains of thought, Okay. Here's the real, transparent comment. When I was reviewing with the elders, kind of what my goal was what I wanted to share. They asked me, they said, Todd, you know, don't pin people down into one of these categories. Don't pick a fight, don't start a fire over dispensationalism or covenant. I said, That's not my goal. So essentially, this question came up, someone's trying to, you know, probably ask us like, do you and a lot of this is a not all of it. A lot of these are about in times. And we have taken a clear stance that that's probably a second tier issue, an open handed issue where we can have really on honest disagreement and never had to separate, but they are in these categories. You know, there are other differences in them in regards to how God works salvific Lee, so I'd be aware of that as well. But no, we wouldn't land as one of these. Speaker 3  1:55:19  Yeah. Okay, final one that I have two more. I'm missing one. I'll read. Do you want to go to the next one? Do you have them up here? I'll just read them off the screen. If the covenant is fulfilled, what do you do with Genesis 17 Eight that says, I will give you the entire land of Canaan, and it will be their possession forever. That's Todd Stiles  1:55:40  a great verse. Thanks for asking. It's a great question. No, seriously, I think that fulfilled and for and forever. Don't negate each other. Here's why. I believe it's an exodus 19 that the Abrahamic covenant is somewhat or at least these elements are repeated in regards to the Mosaic Covenant. And God tells the people of Israel, if you disobey, then I will do these things called the blessing and curse things. And many of them are related to the land. So I would say to you, and you can disagree with this. There was a dispossession of it later, due to disobedience regarding the Mosaic Covenant. But it was fulfilled through Joshua at some point, to the Abrahamic covenant, and I think God will fulfill it again in some way to his people, which I think is the church. And I think that would be the new heavens and new earth. I think that part. Forever still stands. I think God will deliver to his people, everything he promised and Christ. Again, some can disagree with that. They would say we're spiritualizing someone say, No, we're more literal. But I don't think forever and fulfilled negate each other. What happened once in a point in time, and was completed, actually then says it happened? It's good, it will always be forever good. That was that actually happened. It was dispossessed of the disobedience. God will once again at some point, for I think when He comes again and concentrates the kingdom set that up for his chosen people, and it will again, last at that point, it will last forever, eternally. That's how I see it. It's an answer to the question. You may not like the answer, but it's an answer. How would you answer that? Travis? Unknown Speaker  1:57:29  Yeah, I'd agree with that. I thought you answered her very well. Good. Unknown Speaker  1:57:31  I love to hear that. Give some more on that. Yeah, I Speaker 3  1:57:36  do think we many times think on on Earth in our life time in our children's lifetime. We think the here and now I think we forget of the promises Forel forever, which is the new heavens and new earth. And so to say that Christ will fulfill his promise forever. In the new heavens and new earth, I think is a point we regularly forget, I think at the end of Revelation just reminds us like, Lord come quickly, like, fulfill all things like restore all things make everything new. That was his prayer in the end of Revelation. So we should pray that same way. Todd Stiles  1:58:14  Is there another question there are here are live? Okay, let me take this one. And I'll ask you. Unknown Speaker  1:58:26  Oh, man, is it for? Todd Stiles  1:58:29  How do you interpret Ezekiel 37 to 39 the prophecy of God and may God coming against Israel and Israel being miraculously saved by God hasn't been fulfilled? Or how will it be fulfilled? Speaker 3  1:58:40  I don't know. Okay. I answered the question. Isn't that fair? That's a fair answer. I yeah, I I don't have a great answer. For this one I need would need to study. Todd Stiles  1:58:57  Let me see if I can provide a little bit of insight. I kind of anticipated this when I made some notes. Because there are prominent Old Testament passages that speak of the same kind of thing. And I think they're great. I'm so glad for this question. And someone's thinking, like, what about these verses? Great. I think Ezekiel 3438 to 39. I believe 34 is about the coming of the kingdom with Jesus. Maybe even there's a dual vision there of the consummation of the kingdom when Christ comes to the day of the Lord. I believe Ezekiel 38 and 39. They seem to sound a lot like x two and Joel. So if you read them, you're gonna find similar language when Peter said, it is the last days and what you're seeing is the pouring out of the Spirit of God and all peoples. So could it be that what we think is way out there to the prophets was actually the coming of Christ and the inauguration of the kingdom which would lean into saying made he really is the fulfillment of everything God had promised. It's just some food for thought, I think it's very reasonable to see the coming of Christ in that language. And in those chapters, as well as Daniel nine to 12, Zechariah 12 to 14, there's probably dual like mountaintops, a prophet sees one coming of Christ, and he sees something else, maybe the second coming of Christ and the consummation of what he inaugurated, as well as Matthew 24, and 25. And I would love to walk through that chapter, maybe on another Sunday seminar to show you how really historically a lot of this has occurred in Christ really fulfills a lot of it. So I love this question. I would encourage you not to assume that Gog and Magog mean some, you know, Russian country way out in the future. It may have actually meant what it said then in the historical moment. We can disagree on that. Just I will give it thought and consideration. So does that help? Any more questions? And I don't want to disparage and I'm not trying to pick a fight I just want to bring to you. Here's why. And that's all the questions. I'll just wrap up with this one last thing, save your travels with these, I might need your deceived me, buddy. Hey, here's why I brought this to you today. And I meant this when I said at the beginning, even can't and I and Matt probably have some disagreement on some of this. But I love the way these guys and Travis does this for me. We mean, there's a sharpening when I'm with them to be more missional. And to think through what we're saying and how we're saying it so that we don't unintentionally complicate or alienate. And as I just thought through some things I did, I find personally more motivation when there's greater simplicity. And so, as I reviewed some of my own thoughts about the Middle East and the crisis, I did become more convinced that Christ is the centerpiece of all of God's activity. And that God's chosen people were a national group of ethnic Jews. But his plan all along was to merge that with those Gentiles who would believe in that now there is a royal nation, a holy priesthood, a chosen people's what Peter calls the church. And we're to proclaim the praises of Him who has called us out of darkness into light as to Peter's words. So I just find that when it's simple, and I'm more motivated to do what God asks us to do, stay on mission for him. And so I just felt urged by that small group sabotage, to try to provide that same for you. This is kind of how that small group went was a little shorter. They didn't ask questions, I just gave him what I thought and they, they, they didn't stone me further thought, well, maybe our church could benefit if I just honestly shared how I find simplicity in this situation, and it helps me stay on mission because that's what I think we both our elders, all of our leadership, desire for our church. Let's not be distracted, politically or culturally, let's live missionally I know that your heart no matter where you land on some of these views that your heart or you won't even be here. So can we commit to making to developing devoted followers are in game still? Amen. Travis, won't you pray for us and we'll dismiss or she absolutely Speaker 3  2:03:36  Heavenly Father, God, thank you so much. First of all, for your love for us, thank you that we can call you father. And it's because of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross on our behalf in our place, that we can even know you. And we can talk to you and you hear our prayers. And so we're so grateful that you love us, you've chosen us Father, thank you for that. And thank you for the burden on our heart to get the gospel to the ends of the world. I thank you that your last words to your disciple is our first priority that we want to be declares of the Good News of gospel of the gospel. So help us to do that help us to be passionate about that, first and foremost. And Father, we thank You for Your word. It is complicated, it is big, it is robust. There's so much in it. I pray that we would have a humble posture of a student, as we sit in it, read it daily, meditate on it and that we would trust you and the Holy Spirit. To enlighten us and help us understand and illuminate to us the truths of scripture help us to not get bogged down and frustrated to help us not to fight, especially our brothers and sisters in Christ to know you and love you. I pray that unity and love would rule this church Father, thank You for Your love for us. Thank you for these brothers and sisters who are here with me today. Father, I pray that the gospel would go forward and use us in that regard. We love you in Jesus name. Amen Transcribed by https://otter.ai